More passive agressiveity – or is it agressiveness when it’s the passive kind?

Hmmmm …..  how to start and not sound like a douschbag myself

To hell with it.  Let’s do this!! (borrowed from Bionic Dance)

Why is it that we are not supposed to discuss religion, or politics, or how much we make?

Who came up with the unwritten rule that if you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all?

Who the fuck benefits from this?  Seriously?

When there is negative stuff that needs to be said, not saying it only benefits those who don’t want it changed.

So when you bleat and whine about ‘why do you talk about religion or politics so much’  you are part of the problem!

Religion, and I mean here, ORGANISED religion, does HUGE amount of harm to society.  This should be stopped.  But is being protected by people claiming that people should ‘respect’ religion.  Many of these people claiming not to support organised religion.

Demanding respect for something that does not deserve it – IS SUPPORTING IT!

Then Religion – the belief in fradulent fantasy stories, also does harm, harm to the individual.

 

I was recently asked, in a very pointed way, why I often watch atheistic and anti-theistic material, apologetics material.  The discussion wasn’t appropriate for the time.  The argument was ‘you know that stuff, that the arguments are nonsense, why do you keep watching it?’

The point is that I am no Christopher Hitchens, I don’t have all the answers.  Yet I am often and regularly demanded to answer for the temerity of not believing in that person’s particular fantasy.

I’m also not coming from the same position as a lot of active atheists and anti-theists.  I was never a believer.  I struggle to understand the thoughts of believers.  Without exposure to this, I will never understand.

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~ by scawalrus on June 30, 2013.

2 Responses to “More passive agressiveity – or is it agressiveness when it’s the passive kind?”

  1. I was raised in a religious family, mass every sunday, prayers before dinner etc. I, myself am not a believer in religion. I respect your perspectives but I think they need a lot of critiquing. Especially since you don’t really have any experience being on ‘the other side’. Firstly, extremism in any way/shape or form is a harm to society. Even if that be extreme atheism/mass extermination of religion. Extremism always causes conflict, sometimes it’s about weighing up lesser and greater evils. Perhaps it is not so bad to let people believe/do what they want when it makes them happy? Why stop them from doing something they enjoy. That’s like suddenly banning a sport and saying it’s detrimental to society because people waste their time, money and energy into something that is, essentially, pointless. Stay with me here.

    I compare sport and religion because they are both gathered communities that come together for one single reason. They can relate for a single cause. They feel unity and community, something that brings happiness and euphoria to people, what some would argue, is why we are alive in the first place. Say there is no god, does that make the community pointless? Not really.. the benefits are still there. What is the point of a sport? I mean people waste their money on it and make fat-cats rich, with religion at least most of the money goes to charity. I can see no reason why religion is more harmful to society than sport. Feel free to convince me.

    People that ‘demand’ and do ‘harm’ are the extremists I mentioned earlier. Like any club, there are people that take it too far. That’s like the KKK going on a killing spree in the name of patriotism and then everyone blames America as a country. Allow people to be happy. Allow people to pursue their ideal lives and ‘good life.’ Who is to say what is better for humanity? Studies show that religious people report higher levels of satisfaction with life (I studied religion at school). The core values of religion are love, understanding and forgiveness. Jesus ate with sinners and spread a message of peace and love in a time where there wasn’t one(probably going to get flamed for that comment, documents show the dude did exists, whether or not he was a poser is irrelevant, still as legit as Buddha). Let me make this clear once again, I am not a believer, I am simply a liberal. That’s my two cents.

    • 😀 That’s why we have discussions. In attempts to get a sense of other perspectives. Throw your hat in the ring, let’s bat it around.

      I’m struggling to follow your sports analogy. It seems you are trying to say that neither religion nor sport provides concrete benefits for society, and thus should be removed.

      I couldn’t disagree more. Beyond the provision of an excuse for social gathering, I see both as providing certain benefits – but with an important difference.
      Sport. Provides entertainment. There was a time when this was done by having slaves kill each other. I like to think we (as a society) can hold the conceit that we are more civilized as our competitions are far less lethal blood-sports like gladiatorial combat. I see other benefits beyond just some entertainment and people getting together. It provides people, especially young people, with a goal, inspiration to exercise, to get or stay physically fit.
      I think it could be done better. The idea of paying people millions of dollars a season to play a game? The idea of people just watching instead of participating? These are significantly harmful to society. The same positive effects would be provided with far less of the negative effects if it was set up and run differently.

      Religion (as in organised religion) – it can do good, as you point out, and similar to sports, it can provide people a social gathering. It can also provide people with an avenue of charity.
      The flip side of this, is that it teaches people to stop questioning the world around them. It teaches division, discrimination. The moderate elements provide support and protection for the worst of religious behaviour. It demands that ideas not worthy of respect be given respect they do not deserve. The very basis of the ideas are anything but humanitarian. The good it provides can be provided by secular, non religious, organisations, and do so without allowing discrimination built into the action. (ie, charity at cost of being preached at is not really charity, it’s conversion attempts).
      Any community or society should care for it’s members. The overall view that seems to be espoused by religion is that this is the place of religious charity, giving them the built in conversion attempt opportunity. But in that same breath they want to have a political voice. If these groups within society were cared for by society itself, they would not be subject to preaching or discrimination, they could go to the church of their choice if they wanted preaching, I hear that this is a free service.
      On top of this, churches/organised religion, are obviously a business/businesses, Taking money away from society in the form of tax loopholes harms society. Usually the section of society least able to bear that harm.
      Religion should stay out of education, especially science education. Religion has never had a handle on facts or truth. They should get their metaphoric hands out of blocking education and advances in reality.
      Religion should stay out of counselling. This is not to say that priests are not capable of being good or effective counselors. But they are required to leave the religious perspective at the door to do so. Programs like for example the 12 step program – the first few steps being all about DISempowering the client rather than teaching them how to help themselves. Groups like ‘exodus’ (Which has announced it is closing down YAY!!!!) which has done untold harm to thousands of homosexual people and their families.
      Any group that hides child predators from justice should be brought to justice for this. Numerous organised religions have been doing this for a long time. This behavior does not aid society in any way.
      When an organised religion supports things like lying about biology to ensure that thousands, millions of people in a country do not use condoms that would protect them from aids and stop it’s spread. This needs to be held to account against the good they do.
      And so it goes on.
      If you are going to argue for the good of something to society, you must balance this against the harm. the GROSS good is meaningless, it is the NET good that needs to be measured.

      Just a thought about the financial cost to the end user. When you go to a sporting event you purchase a ticket, you or I may see that as overpriced, but that’s a separate argument. For that ticket you get exactly what was advertised, you get to watch a game of whatever sport. You can buy hot dogs or whatever food is available at the stadium. And there you get what is advertised too. (again the overpricing and gouging is a different issue)
      When you go to church and put your pay in the plate, you have no way of knowing if you get what is advertised. Even when it comes to using that funding for charity. If all the money beyond the priest’s reasonable wages and church basic upkeep was used for charity then where the hell does all the gold the vatican is bathed in come from? Where do these mega-churches spring up from? Did they all get donated? Did architects and builders donate their time and materials to build 50 foot crosses? Or stone religious alters on public grounds? How is it that television evangelists drive luxury cars?
      No, even if you take the view that charity is what is advertised, churches are engaged in wholesale fraud here.

      Is it extremism to speak out against these harms? To refuse to accept this behaviour? To push for a better society?

      This is where we get to that trick fine line. I agree that people have the right to believe what they want to believe. I agree that they should have the right to express it. No one has the right to have that expression protected from questioning or challenge. Beliefs do not warrant any special protection because they are religious. Most of all, to posit beliefs as reality requires evidence. This is why the philosophy of science exists. To conclusively test evidence for objective veracity. I’ve not yet seen any religious claim that stands up to this testing. Not to say I have seen every examination of every claim, not yet anyway. But I do go looking for this, and I consistently encourage anyone who might hear of some to toss it my way. Until such has come to light, religion has no right to make reality claim. And the belief that god exists, whatever god or gods, should be treated with the same reverence and respect as the belief there is an invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage.

      While a good amount of the direct harm is done by extremists. Westboro Baptist and KKK as two examples. But why do you think these groups continue to exist and are never stopped entirely?
      Partly it is the problem of freedom of speech. This comes at a cost.
      But more importantly it is the problem of ‘moderate’ believers demanding respect for religious beliefs, insisting that religious beliefs should have more rights than people. Or even the same rights. As I think I mentioned earlier, religious beliefs are ideas, ideas do not deserve inherent respect.
      That same squeamish demand for religious protects and supports vile individuals like ‘mother’ theresa. The support of witch-hunts throughout Africa and the torture and killing of children in the name of those witch-hunts. Support for what amounts to the murder of thousands of Africans through aids by denying them access to condoms. And so on.

      I have no problem with people doing what they need to to achieve peace of mind, as long as it doesn’t harm others or impinge on the rights of others.

      Organised religion does not meet those requirements.

      I don’t let ‘moderate’ believers off the hook for the actions of other believers that they protect and support.

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